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#12645155 Aug 22, 2016 at 03:05 PM
Officer
316 Posts
I made a new thread in a new section of the Roleplay forum. Based on the brainstorm thread, here is the best spot if you have any questions yet about the children of Rossiel or the red company. Also, you can bring up ideas here regarding what kind of extra lore about our kinship you wish to see worked out. It is also possible to propose entire concepts, but they have to be agreed by the officers, as they judge whether it is fitting for our kinship or not. It is also possible we officers alter such original concept, though we will ask the original authors permision if we wish to make that lore official.
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#12645762 Aug 22, 2016 at 06:45 PM
Officer
99 Posts
Suilad,

(ok I am stretching it a bit but I was interested in nailing some things down within the historical lore of middle earth). Please take issue and correct me with anything I have written down. Also I am assuming Rossiel lived 2000 years ago.

What I understand so far:

Andarth was a “captain” of the Dunedain and was given the stewardship of Ost Barandor about 2000 years ago (TA1000 aprox) which would have been 1000 years after the defeat of Sauron and when the last alliance was made. I believe King Mallor the third King of Arthedain would have bestowed the stewardship.

Around this time TA1000 to TA 1100 the Istari arrived in the north and hobbits moved east across the misty mountains as a shadow was falling over Greenwood the Great.

At this time the kingdom of Anor was split into three smaller kingdoms after many years of civil war. The Dunedain were scattered and Annuminas had been deserted and was falling into ruin. Fornorst was the capital of Arthedain.

However Anor was re-established all be it for a short time under King Aregeleb 11 (TA 1473-1670) after the great plague (TA1636) swepted north from Gondor.

When Andarth was slain his wife Rossiel took the stewardship and defended Ost Barandor and Halrhil .

As demonstrated by the history few descendants of Rossiel and Andarth had survived. But the purpose of the family continued to defend the lands of Arhedain.

I can quite see how the Red Company could be established under the banner of the Golden (or is it crimson?) Pheonix to defend the oath and pledge of the Children of Rossiel. I do wonder if there might be other linages within the company. As other Dunedain and men gathered under the banner.
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#12646394 Aug 22, 2016 at 10:19 PM
Officer
316 Posts
Which king bestowed captaincy upon Andarth depends of the reason the red company was founded. We write Andarth was slain by a Cardolan prince. I assume with that we'd talk about the civil war of TA 861. The 10th king Earendur dies and his three sons quarrels, thus arnor gets divided with this cause. In this case captaicy would have bestowed by Amlaith, the first kin of Arthedain and not Mallor, the third king. He lives 200 years later. But mind that in current material, we did not mention a date of foundation, and the reason of foundation is partially unclear. We just mention that Andarth is the first steward of a newly raised fortress Ost Barandor.

Fornost became the new capital of [Arnor] Arthedain, on the same date Arnor split: TA 861.

I don't know too well what happened during the rule of Argeleb II, but that can, just like everything else, be checked on the Tolkien Gateway. For Rossiel this is not relevant, as this is half a millenium later.
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#12647757 Aug 23, 2016 at 11:06 AM
Officer
316 Posts
I was thinking, and with the questions that have been asked I realized the existant lore is still too rough and needs to be more explicit. Also, with these questions it's a good exercice, both for you and me, to get a hang on the history of Arnor and to place our lore in the good context. What I learned from this set of questions is that little details need to be revised to avoid doubt and ambiguity. Besides the nice text and good presentation on LA, it would be useful for us if we made a timeline for our kin with special events and dates.
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#12648413 Aug 23, 2016 at 03:55 PM
Officer
99 Posts
Suilad,

I was trying to figure the context and history of the Red Company.

If the stewardship of Ost Barandor was granted by the first king of Arthedain King Amlaith this would be presumable soon after he took claim to Fornost and made the kingdom of Arthedain. As you say 861.

Below is what I have found out about the split of Anor

During the reign of Earendur of Arnor the kingdom was not at peace with itself due to the quarrels of Earnendur’s three sons. All three of them claimed right to the throne. To ensure peace after Earendur’s death the kingdom of Arnor was divided into three lesser kingdoms: Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur.

Arthedain covered the land north of the Great East Road and west of the Brandywine River. Its capitol was Fornost and Bree was a major town. (presumable on the boarder of Cardolan) Annumiminas was in the territory of Arthedain but deserted. Arthedain also controlled the weather hills and Weather Top. However, because of Weathertop’s Palantir both Cardolan and Rhudaur laid claim to the fortress. Its first King was Amlath (TA 861-946)

Cardolan streatched from the Brandywine River to the last Bridge and south of the great East Road.

Rhudaur stretched from the Weatherhills to the river Burinen.

I don't know if we as a kin want to go into such detail in fixing the history of the kin within the Lore. However I am happy to do contribute.
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#12669130 Aug 30, 2016 at 03:13 PM
Officer
99 Posts
As suggested by Throgorn I have started a Lore time lime which is relevant to Arthaedain. Mostly Kings reigns and significant events like the Harefoots, Istari and the Rise of Sauron and Angmar.

I note with interest that Lady Rossiel was full Numenorean. This could lend itself to her having a longer lifespan than most Dunedain.

The early reigns of the Kings of Arthaedain were mostly peaceful apart of the cross boarder skirmishes and battles with Carodolan and Rhudaur. It wasnt until around TA1300 that evil forces became a problem.
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#12669376 Aug 30, 2016 at 04:58 PM
Officer
316 Posts
If the lifespan of a Dúnadan is shortened, it is because his ancestors mixed up their Númenorean blood with that of 'middle men'.

Probably, because Halhiril was located on the southern border of Arthedain, we did not know that peace. We were likely in the border skirmishes you mentioned.

Evil stirring around TA 1300 is no surprise, because it is the Period Angmar was founded.
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#12671635 Aug 31, 2016 at 05:47 PM
Officer
99 Posts
I have been looking at maps of Arthedain. Of course they are not all the same. Although the southern boarder of Arthedain is the great easter road. However some maps show that Arthedain extended further south after the Brandywine.

It is feasable that maps change over time.

Interesting to note that Bree is on the East road so presuamable was at some time on the boarder between Arthedain and Cardolan.
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#12694129 Sep 09, 2016 at 12:56 PM
Officer
99 Posts
I have a couple of questions relating to our existing lore.

The Laurelin Archives refer to the founder of Ost Barandor as Andarth. However there is on the in game map on the North South road a ruin called Andrath. Is Andarth a seperate name or is really supposed to be Andrath?

A second question relating to rp and lore is that codemasters took some licences.

One of which is:

As far as I can see Annuminas was not flooded just abandoned. However in game parts of it are underwater .

In working within rp should we refer to in game geology or Tolkien lore?
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#12694523 Sep 09, 2016 at 04:15 PM · Edited 1 year ago
Officer
316 Posts
The similarity between Andarth and the area Andrath are just coincidences. They have nothing to do with each other.

The second question is a bit more complex: On the wikis stand that Annuminas is abandoned and the word flooded may not have been used. (I don't really know in which state Annuminas is, so I assume what you say.) there are now two theories to help you out.

In the first theory, I assume that the part you find flooded is just the harbour of Annuminas, and in such things is usually water. Then there's no real lore-breaking or confusion in that case.

In the second theory we assume lore-bending.

Lore-breaking and lore-bending are two important terms in RP. You break the lore when you violate the content Tolkien wrote. But in many cases, especially by turbine, you bend lore. Tolkien put much work in his world, but obviously there are holes he didn't cover. This is were an official company like Turbine, or our kin, or an individual player, can adjust the lore according to his own interpretations.

So let's say Annuminas was abandoned. The mysterious blue lady (whoms name I forgot, she's part of the long storyline to reforge Narsil) raised the water so that tomb raiders wouldn't run off with the valuables and important artefacts. In this storyline, she especially lowered the waterlevel again for you, the player, after you gained her trust so you can re-enter the city.

This is a form of lore-bending, and Turbine did much of such things so they could create their game.

Another excellent example of lore-bending is Angmar. The renewed realm of Angmar during the war of the ring, or Earnur who went missing to become a wraith and steward of Angmar, are only true in lotro and nowhere else. You better don't tell that on a general forum to discuss lore. They'll consider it as nonsense.

So we recognize three forms of Lore:
  • Lore created by tolkien. Everyone over the world accepts it.
  • lore created by Turbine. This is lore-bending, and we as the red company accept this lore because we're also playing in the world that is adjusted. This lore is only accepted in lotro-communities.
  • lore created by you/us. This is lore that you created especially for your character, or that we created for own use within our kinship. With good arrangements, others may accept it, but this is not necessarily the case. Another kinship that put a use for Ost Barandor in their own lore may obviously not agree on ours because it violated theirs.

To make the answer shorter: Annuminas may have been flooded, but isn't anymore. What you see of flooded area belongs to the docks/harbour. We will work for our lore with the area that is established by Turbine, or one day we would be in conflict: the lore wouldn't fit with the scenery of the built world. It is important to note that we consider the lore of turbine not as a violation of the lore of Tolkien. So actually, there's no real doubt about what side we favour: we choose both.
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#12694719 Sep 09, 2016 at 05:33 PM
Officer
99 Posts
Wow thank you Theogorn.

Good to know that Andarth isn't Andrath. I was having problems with it.

My understanding regarding the next point is that we trust in Turbines/Codemasters/developers bending of the lore and work with the world as we see it or experience it in game.
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